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Post by rare on Sept 28, 2015 9:38:58 GMT
Ok, so most are aware of some of the chat issues that have come up over the last month or so. Basically "English only" is being much more strictly enforced, which is fine, as long as it is across the board for everyone. Exactly what "English only" is though, I think needs to be much more clearly defined.
What is currently not allowed:
foreign words, even if used in normal everyday English and regardless if most know what it means. (example, Si, danke, merci, etc)
What is allowed (or not corrected in main when it happens):
Elite speak - for those unfamiliar, this is stuff like "1337" which means elite, or LEET as it's supposed to represent. This is more annoying than foreign languages to some.
Intentionally misspelled English words: words like "pwnd" and "rekt" which are NOT English, but are seemingly. This is more annoying than foreign languages to some.
Links to non-English pics and sites (this might be ok, just needs to be clarified)
Abbreviations of words like "gz" and "lolz" and such. Again, this is not English and I do not see how this differs from foreign words that everyone knows. Internet speak =/= English
Math formulas (which are not English, math is it's own universal language)
It really seems that only non-English that annoys staff members is currently warned or dealt with and any non-English that they don't personally find offensive is let go. They even use some of the above non-English examples frequently.
Given the issues that chat has caused recently, I figure it would be better sooner rather than later to clarify all of these before an issue comes up and it is forced to be addressed.
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Post by lawsy on Sept 28, 2015 12:01:53 GMT
Lets clear this up...
Speak english only in main... The chat rules are very clear. The reason mods are becoming more strict about it, and why there are so many issues at the minute, is because players are abusing it. Yes we would allow the occasional "merci" or something along them lines, but it has started getting too much. TOo many people are 'riding along the line', getting so close to breaking the rules but not quite and it is making the whole chat uncomfortable.
At the end of the day, there are chat rules which you all know very well, start following them please.
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Post by rare on Sept 28, 2015 15:23:28 GMT
Honestly lawsy I am not clear on ANY of the issues I posted, that's why I posted them. I am asking for clarification of the rules that have recently had their enforcement stepped up.
Just because it may be clear to some does not mean it is clear to all. You all know the internet, these things need to be spelled out or issues WILL arise.
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Post by draavon on Sept 28, 2015 23:08:27 GMT
I don't think that that kind of reply is really helpful Lawsy, asking for clarification is never a bad thing even if it is Rare doing so. Things may seem cut and dried to one person whereas to another person not so much. If one is to ask for clarification is this not the place to do so? I think that fair points were made, whether or not Stabzs and the mods have all the answers right now. In my opinion there are indeed still grey areas.
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Post by bluewhale on Sept 30, 2015 12:41:42 GMT
Draavon, the clarification is the following: we don't mind the odd foreign word, as many foreign words are included in English phrases. Hence people are warned not to abuse it. When it is abused we have to step in and make a call. Grey areas exist because of differing contexts. The idea is to keep the community as fluid as possible, this means clamping down on trolling, in the instances when the trolling is blatantly pushing the line after you've been told not to. Making a blanket English only everywhere just moves the boundaries to have different grey areas which we have to interpret to the best of our judgements. Hence stabby tells us to try and mod with common sense when dealing with the grey areas and to apologise afterwards in cases where we are wrong or a misunderstanding occurs. This does happen and not necessarily in main. Hence calling for the rules to be changed moves the goal posts, but doesn't remove something which cannot be removed without creating an anal retentive chat where people are scared to express themselves (hence why a small amount of caps for example is allowed). Also note we apply the same to people using chat emotion character thingies like the table flipping and faces. (Sorry I can't remember the name). As well as maths. I hope that makes it clear, or clearer.
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Post by draavon on Sept 30, 2015 17:06:03 GMT
Thanks for the reply Whale, and I totally agree that there will always be grey areas and it is up to the mods to use common sense in those situations. Perhaps the focus of my previous reply was a bit off from what I was really trying to say. I simply didn't like the tone of Lawsy's reply, the gist being "you know the rules now start following them". I don't think that is a useful reply to inquiry asking for clarification. I think it's juvenile for players to push the mods by toeing the line but I also think it's the mods' responsibility to try to clarify the rules when asked. Rare brought up a couple of points that I thought could warrant a serious reply. I personally find it as distracting when people are using silly spellings like "bunneh", etc. as when they use foreign words. I really do appreciate the work the mods do but seeing rebuke when a player asks for clarification makes me not want to participate.
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Post by bluewhale on Sept 30, 2015 20:37:55 GMT
I don't think silly spellings are something we can control, sorry I neglected to address it. I think its a bit silly, and I often do it myself in certain situations. At the end of the day this is a game, and it's on the internet. So both internet slang and the silliness that comes with it is acceptable to me. At the end of the day there has to be a sensibility about where the line is draw, to me this means being relatively lenient, otherwise from personal experience, games with too well defined rules end up become intolerable, whilst at the other end of the spectrum, they're a complete mess. However, again silliness does fall under the same grey area of moderation though. If you use it infrequently that's not a problem, but if your sentence is OMG LOLZ TEH HAXORZ for example, then we step in. The community usually essentially moderates itself before we have to step in, which is nice to see when it is done correctly. Sometimes that's also part of the job, it's giving chat a chance to correct itself. I appreciate your input though, and I believe stabby wants to rewrite one or two of the rules so that this kind of clarification is clear. However it is impossible to put perfectly fixed boundaries on each chat rule, but I think the majority of the points mentioned here are well encompassed in the clarification given.
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Post by stabzs on Oct 1, 2015 15:20:00 GMT
Thanks to some excellent player feedback, the "English-Only" rule, aka, Chat Rule 2, has been updated to the following: To clarify, the original intent of the rule was NOT to prohibit all players from using any foreign word in any context ever. In this particular case, players continued to push the line and, as a result, they were muted for that pushing. That said, the last thing I am interested in is creating a militaristic chat where moderators are forced to continuously contend with players over every tiny potential exception to the rule. As a result, the rule has been changed to the above, which will allow for As for the rest: Allowed, but don't speak in such a form that would make it difficult for others to understand your meaning (aka, the containing sentence must be understandable by the average English-speaker). Intentionally misspelled English words: words like "pwnd" and "rekt" which are NOT English, but are seemingly. This is more annoying than foreign languages to some. Allowed, but same as Elite speak, don't go crazy. This was never prohibited under the existing rules and will not be prohibited going forward either. Again, don't go crazy. Keep it to a level where people can easily understand you. Any arguments before the rule change that this should be prohibited is purely legalistic and not in the original spirit of the rule. I don't have a problem with this, unless the formulas or symbols are long enough so as to become spammy and interrupt the normal flow of chat. While the rule change offers a lot more flexibility and lot less nitpicking, at the end of the day, players still have a responsibility to stop pushing moderators on every little nuance in the rules. It isn't constructive, it doesn't lead to positive improvements in the rules or the community whatsoever, and it monopolizes a tremendous amount of everyone's time and energy to deal with the bickering. As a result, even with this rule change, players cannot continue to try to poke holes and cross lines. A lot of additional flexibility was granted today, so don't abuse it .
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Post by draavon on Oct 1, 2015 15:49:51 GMT
I like the change and additionally just want to say that I feel much better about this whole exchange after some good responses from Lawsy and Whale.
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Post by rare on Oct 1, 2015 20:03:00 GMT
Thanks for clarifying each of those points and for all the other input. I think those updates will help a lot of people better understand what they can and can't do in chat, especially new players. I think they will all help provide a better chat experience.
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Post by stabzs on Nov 4, 2015 14:33:23 GMT
Locking and moving since the rule changes were implemented.
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